‘Jeepers’ need lessons on trail users: musher
Conditions of trails in and around the city is at the centre of the latest feud between various trail users.
By Pierre Chauvin on January 8, 2016
Conditions of trails in and around the city is at the centre of the latest feud between various trail users.
It all started with a post on a Facebook page dedicated to Jeep owners – “Jeepers” – in the territory and quickly escalated to accusations of trail destruction by various community members.
After going on the Livingston trail last Sunday, Jordan Rivest, a member of the Yukon Jeepers Facebook group, posted a message about doing a similar run on the Alligator trail.
The post prompted concerns by members of the Dog Powered Association on Facebook, as a race was scheduled for Jan. 17.
Rivest said as soon as he learned about it, he decided to postpone his trip.
At the same time, a picture posted on the Jeepers’ page from Nov. 3, 2015 showing two Jeeps stuck in a creek started making the round on social media.
“Now that is the picture of the Jeep destroying trails in the Yukon,” Rivest told the Star Thursday.
In the end, he and other Jeepers from the Facebook group are getting wrongfully blamed for damage others have caused, he said.
Comments on the Dog Powered Association page express concerns and anger over repeated damage done to trails used by mushers.
“We seem to be painted with this picture ‘these guys are responsible for everything.’”
While the Sunday run left some tracks in the snow, it didn’t damage the trail, Rivest said, except for when his Jeep became stuck in a creek because of thin ice.
He said he showed pictures of shallow ruts the Jeeps left to a musher, who didn’t see them as a problem.
Besides, the part of the Livingston trail he went on was already rutted up from the summer and the fall, he said.
That’s exactly the problem, said musher Gerry Willomitzer, who ran several Yukon Quests and Iditarods.
“They leave behind a rutted trail for the winter (and years to come), and if, for example, a bison hunter or trapper comes out of the bush with a heavy toboggan full of gear and meat, they have a hard time travelling,” he said.
“I don’t suggest the Jeepers have malicious motives, but they don’t think beyond their own horizon, and need to be educated about their actions.”
Willomitzer sent the Star pictures of a deeply-rutted trail, which he says is Livingston.
In some of the pictures, the ground is visible because of the sparse snow cover.
But Rivest insists he is respectful of the trail, unlike the “idiots” who damaged local cross country ski trails.
On Dec. 8, two trucks damaged 15 kilometres of trails at the Mount McIntyre ski club.
“We’re not making new trails, not cutting through bush.”
Rivest said he’s looking into whether it’s possible to hook a groomer to his Jeep to minimize the impact on the trails.
No rule against tire ruts
Within city limits, off-road vehicles (ORVs) like Jeeps can only go on motorized multi-use trails. But tire ruts ORVs can leave on these trails aren’t against the city’s parks and open space bylaw.
“Really, if there is operation of a vehicle causing damages to the vegetation or to trees, then that’s when we would step in,” said Douglas Hnatiuk, the manager of parks and community development at the city.
It comes down to common courtesy and communication, he said.
But the lack of a group representing ORV users is hindering that, Rivest notes, insisting he can only speak for himself.
The Facebook group is an informal way for people sharing the same hobby to meet and exchange tips on trails and routes, he said.
“If there is an organized group of off-road vehicles, I’d like to meet with them and discuss common interests and maintenance,” said Mark Daniel, president of the Klondike Snowmobile Association (KSA).
Daniel insists on the fact he and the KSA don’t have a problem with ORVs, calling it a “legitimate form of recreation.”
But ORVs represent the biggest safety and maintenance issue for the association.
“We spend the bulk of our time and money repairing damages done by highway vehicles,” he told the Star Thursday.
Education is key, he pointed out.
“We’re all about shared trail use, multi-use – (but) you can easily wreck trails with anything.”
Rivest agrees – communication would be welcomed, especially about planned dog races so ORV users can make sure they don’t interfere.
Ultimately, he should be able to use the trails like other users, he said.
“I do like to enjoy where we live; for me, that’s using my Jeep.”
New rule for trails outside city limits
The low snow cover allows for ATVs and ORVs that wouldn’t normally be on the trails at this time of the year.
“This has resulted in the potential for increased conflicts between recreational users,” said Johanna Smith, acting director of land management for the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources (EMR).
Currently, there are no regulations governing ORV use outside of city limits, but EMR is working on some after public consultation completed last summer.
“The department is in the process of finalizing a What We Heard report which summarizes comments raised during the summer consultation on the discussion paper,” Smith said.
The report will be released later this month or in early February.
Only commercial use requires a permit from EMR to use trails for vehicles over five tons or to create trails wider than 1.5 metres.
Comments (29)
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Davis on Oct 28, 2019 at 12:14 pm
I've come across wheel ruts like these all the time, it's very annoying on a snow machine! Always a few special individuals that have to ruin it for everyone else...
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Cap'n Obvious on Jan 14, 2016 at 9:31 am
The same folks that do the jeeping also tend to run snow machines, and I have a feeling (given good notice and good communication) that these same people would likely be the first to help groom said trails for an important dogsled race.
Good will goes a long way. Instead of butting heads let's find a way to make these shared resources work for everyone.
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Mark Ackerman Sr. on Jan 13, 2016 at 6:47 pm
I am an active UTV user in the summertime. And in the winter I park the UTV and bring out my sled. I am registered and fully insured. I do not cut new trails and am polite on the trail. Jeepers in the winter do annoy me a bit with the ruts in the snow, but you know what? They have every bit of a right to use them as I do. I simply deal with it, I don't whine and snivel like a spoiled little kid the way some people do. Are mushers insured? I have a collection of well over 150 "booties" found on trails. Some are pretty nice too! I have complete sets even. I travel the trails after the "Quest" mushers have gone through. I always give right of way to mushers when I come across them on trails because like me, the jeepers and hikers have as much right to be on the trails. I've had hikers swing sticks at me, curse at me and I laugh it off and move on. Ask a jeeper the difference between four wheel drive, all wheel drive, and quadratrac and he/she could tell you. Ask an eco freak or a soccer mom and you'll see a stupid look on their face most likely. People buy four wheel drive vehicles with the false security that it is going to be a lifesaver on paved roads. Most don't even know how to drive them right, so they wing it. Anyway.... The Yukon is for everyone to enjoy, not just a few self righteous enviro- morons who want to live in their own little world. Environmentalists could care less about the planet, they only care about "their" own habitat area. I still wait to find one of these deep in the bush asking for my help. Some begging will occur before I offer help them. But that's another issue to discuss. Until that happens, treat me how you want to be treated.
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Sandy on Jan 13, 2016 at 2:37 pm
I will fully admit that I am on the non-motorized recreationalist side of the coin. Thing is though, everyone needs somewhere to play. It seems like there needs to be agreements made with skiers-snowmobilers, dog mushers-jeepers and who knows who else on areas where we can all recreate. This could be achieved by having organization heads meet and figure it out. The jeepers need somewhere to go and so do the dog sledders. Instead of fighting and pointing fingers you should just get together and figure out designated zones.
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Logic 101 on Jan 12, 2016 at 3:42 pm
If you want to look at the history of the Aligator Lake trail, it was a hunting and trapping trail for the local First Nations before it was commandeered by the mining industry, widened and driven on by heavy trucks.
Now can we stop laying claim to rights to do what we want based on what others did decades ago? That had NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU, or your little boy-toy. Someone else's 'work' or taking over of someone else's trail does not mean that you, being on four wheels as well, are welcome to do as you please for ever more. And even by that argument, you are second or third in line behind dog teams and people on foot.
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Yukoner on Jan 12, 2016 at 2:23 pm
I live in Wolfcreek walking these trails for 25 years all year round & still going strong! I've been curteous to everyone I meet, but in the last 5 years I'm ashamed of the childish behaviour of the people trying to own the trails! I've been hit with a ski pole which was close to being shoved, screamed at & many times the rudeness of just standing in the middle of the trail on purposes. It's sad cuz I've never witnessed anything negative from any riders! This has to stop!! TRAILS ARE FOR ANYONE THAT WANTS TO USE THEM! So keep your feet on the pegs & your right hand cranked!
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D on Jan 12, 2016 at 1:14 am
My question is, why can't dog mushers clean up after themselves? Every time I see one parked outside a hotel or restaurant they leave their dog poop and pee covered straw all over the place. How are these trucks leaving ruts any worse than you mushers leaving copious amounts of dog crap and straw everywhere you go. If they have to groom the trail you should be expected to take care of your messes right...? Yet you don't and will leave the messes right in the parking lot of the super store or a hotel right in front a set of stairs for a small young child to walk through and get all over their clothing. If you can afford to mush dogs you can afford to put in your own trail.
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truth~ on Jan 12, 2016 at 12:59 am
Just Sayin' on Jan 8, 2016 at 5:02 pm
IF heavy equipment made the trail than anyone should be allowed to use it including vehicles!
That is the truth. I wonder how many people who are against the ORV use on trails are born Yukoners? How many of you moved here? If you did move here and are creating issues such as limiting traditional Yukoners ways then do your self a favor and please escort your self out of the territory. I feel as if you should have to be a Yukoner of 10+ years to even vote on this issue.
Also how many of you mushers actually clean up after your dogs on the trail? I SERIOUSLY doubt any of you do and yet you complain about something so minor and trivial? What the hell is wrong with you?
Share the trails, they're not yours and you don't own them. People pay for their toys to use them, not have them sit on the bottom of the hill or park beside some mud so we can day dream about covering our jeep in them. Get real.
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Politico on Jan 10, 2016 at 5:15 pm
Now children, if you can't share the sandbox none of you can use it.
Point is, normal use of the trails by some people will destroy them to the point others cannot use them.
What's fair?
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north_of_60 on Jan 10, 2016 at 1:10 pm
If mushers and skiers can’t share the trails with all other users, then they should build their own special use trails that are too narrow for vehicles.
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Jeff on Jan 10, 2016 at 1:07 pm
Sounds like a bunch of spoiled, entitled people whining about what other people do, next you'll want paved trails for your snowmobiles. And to the dog mushers...you're not a special privileged class.. learn to live with others. F'n Whaa!
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flexible on Jan 10, 2016 at 9:03 am
Well, has any one seen a Jeep commercial recently? They race down streams and up snowy roads. Jordan, your gang is living the dream, oops, your gang is living the commercial! Glad to know that advertising works and you act out their pitch.
I have a 4X4 but use it to get to the base of a trail and then strap on the skis or snowshoes and keep going from there. Try it! It's healthy! and you get the best of both worlds!
From all the responses, your style of activity is not popular. Why don't you guys use the frozen lakes for a playground?
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Trail Guru on Jan 9, 2016 at 6:48 pm
Nobody is talking about driving a buggy down Main Street. Smoke some more crack. These "trails" are ROADS in the bush. Is this in the city? There is a common courtesy to not destroy these trails to ensure others can enjoy them. The tire tracks in the pics are nothing and part of, if not all of, Livingston band land. They have guys in there with trucks since the summer anyways. So you mushers seem to sound pretty stupid to me complaining about everything. I come across you on a trail. You have a crappy scowl on your face and don't wave back. You must own the world. We all must share these trails. If going on these trails involves trucks or jeeps making real ruts, than they can either be groomed or the off-road vehicles can stay off. You mushers and skiers want to not see anyone on the trails.
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Just Say'in on Jan 9, 2016 at 2:29 pm
@JP This is not a 'City of Whitehorse Trail' for starters it is a Mining road that is still actively used for Mining. This road accesses and services the Livingston Mining area on the Teslin River. This town has lost its collective mind when it comes to the trail issues. I hope the country goes broke and all the newbies have to load up and go back home where ever that is. We must band together and tell the City and YTG that this is enough or it won't stop.
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Preston Griffiths on Jan 9, 2016 at 1:12 pm
JP - You are confusing city, mount mac ski walking trails and city multi use trails with 4x4 roads and Cat trails which are predominately outside of city limits and are not ski trails, not walking trails, not dog sledding trails! They are as wide as a Cat blade and made by 4x4 and heavy machines. There is a difference between the city multi use trails you speak of and old exploration ROADs! There are many miles of these trails for non motorized use, ski, dog sled, etc., which aren't wide enough for 4x4 use anyway, so you can't have these old Cat roads too! Can't expect to have every #$#$#$ old bush road and all the trails too!!! That's not a Balanced approach! !!!!
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JP on Jan 9, 2016 at 12:09 am
There’s a reason why Whitehorse’s ATV Bylaw section 13 bans ATVs from motorized multiple use trails in winter, specifically from November 1 to March 31 (which should really be extended to April 30, as April is one of the worst time for rut damage).
The ATV Bylaw includes “the making of ruts” in its definition of “DAMAGE”, and section 28 prohibits ATVs from doing damage “to any area”.
Whitehorse’s new Parks Bylaw section 31 bans ‘automobiles’ (i.e. cars & trucks) from City trails, unless the trail was specifically designated for that purpose.
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Traditional Yukoner on Jan 9, 2016 at 12:06 am
Sure… Main Street in Whitehorse was first built with teams of pack horses, so why can’t I drive my horse carriage down Main Street? It’s the Yukon tradition to do whatever we like, and we should be allowed to snowmobile in the middle of Main Street whenever, not just during Rendezvous. Those newbies that invented street lights and regulations should all go back to Toronto… and take with them those environmentalists who are the worst menace to the Yukon tradition because they just won’t stop talking about fossil fuels causing pollution and ORVs stressing wildlife.
The Yukon is the ideal ORV park, because once you’ve rutted a place so bad that you can’t drive there anymore, there’s always more land around for grinding. The best is, you can drive in loops and enjoy the beautiful mountain views ahead, and you won’t have to look back on what you’ve just done.
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Matt Freemantle on Jan 8, 2016 at 8:46 pm
Gerry, this is absurd. These trails are not your mushing trails. All of us will share them with you. You are driving an all terrain vehicle yourself. Only yours leaves a trail of s**t. You ever clean it up? Doubt it. There are many dangers in any sport. When you plan on using an old road in rough shape for getting out, you are going to find old ruts. Maybe you could pick another trail. A trail that people don't cut wood on, do wildlife management and has width not acceptable to driving a Mack truck through. ORV's already only have so many places that they are really allowed on. Thank you for trying to ruin that. It's the irresponsible a**holes that ruin the ability to get out and see these places due to their careless off-roading, placing the burden on groups like Yukon Jeepers. It's also the a**holes that point fingers and set up news stories to try and ruin it for the responsible 4x4 enthusiasts. Do you have a soul? Enough is enough. It's time people stop whining about tracks in the snow and broken ice. Find something positive in your life and focus on it. Maybe use the transcanada trail, it is groomed. The yukon is full of trails. Stop trying to take over the ones built for a truck to go through. Your dog sled is as wide as a shopping cart. Go use the shopping cart wide trails and leave everyone alone. While we are at work trying to make a living, your in the background supporting your mushing and ski agenda. There are trails already for mushers and skiers. Go use them.
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Pjt1959 on Jan 8, 2016 at 6:59 pm
I am in favor of shared use trails and not making new ones. Now it comes to common sense. If there is snow on the ground winter sports time so all wheeled travel should be stopped, I know bikes are going to be upset but this is part of sharing. When the snow is gone and ground dried up then wheeled vehicles can use trails. If everyone learned to share it would be nice but too many people do not want to share too many want only their thing for a trail. If all use common sense and be nice it will work fine but it will not work if everyone is selfish then no one will get along. I know that a lot will disagree but they are the selfish ones. That is my rant.
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Jordan Rivest on Jan 8, 2016 at 6:54 pm
It's unfortunate that the photo the Star choose to run is what is probably the worst damage on the entire trail. Hard to tell from the photo, but this is a smallish hill that I had to break trail going up first. Everywhere else (unless one is going to try and pass off frozen ruts in the mud as "wrecking" the trail), the tracks were maybe half as deep as this - if that. And when I showed pictures of what 95% of the trail we broke looked like, a musher and a couple of people who skidoo said it wouldn't be an issue. So no, the trail is not "ruined". One small section might be a little more challenging, but in no way shape or form would this prevent someone else from using this trail - especially as this is one very small section of the 35km of trail we used.
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Stu Whatman on Jan 8, 2016 at 5:19 pm
I have no problem with jeeps using roads like the Livingston trail in the summer.
This news article is a little confusing. Are jeeps now allowed on all MMU trails within the city? If they are then why not 4 wheel drive trucks? Where is the cutoff? Also, I thought you cannot use ATVs and presumably jeeps on MMU trails in the winter so how do the jeeps legally access these trails?
What is very disappointing to me is that all non-motorized trails in the city are open to skidoo use with few exceptions. Who is representing people who walk and have lived and enjoyed quiet trails within the city for years. When did city council decide to give something most people value away? Why has the city given away our green spaces and non-motorized trails to snow machines? Where is the planning and consultation? Where is the compensation?
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Just Sayin' on Jan 8, 2016 at 5:02 pm
IF heavy equipment made the trail than anyone should be allowed to use it including vehicles!
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Preston Griffiths on Jan 8, 2016 at 4:33 pm
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1390732211254631/
Yukon 4X4 & ATV Users Against Aspects of YTG Off-Road Vehicle Legislation
We Stand for all Existing trails to be Grandfathered in with no restrictions while using the trails that already exist, within a real world buffer of those existing trails width. Regardless of that existing trails elevation or Muddy conditions etc. etc.
If the Government starts to block off trails and limit access all it will do is completely backfire because you will not be able to stop people from accessing those areas 100% of the time.
What will happen is people will start to cut new trails and roads to bypass the area where the gate or restriction is and enter those restricted areas via new trail or across the open tundra or wetlands, ultimately restriction and gates will over time lead to even more trail expansion and creation for this simple fact!
As soon as you Block the existing trails off, put limitations and signage, people will look to other avenues to access those areas via routes where there was not a trail or road before, I don't support these actions but it will become a reality. It is human nature to want to do something simply for that fact you have been told you can't.
Education is Key! Not Blanket Trail Regulations and Trail Restrictions based on a few bad people, bad choices, while Off-Roading.
As one of our members so clearly put it: "We need to protect the land from a few yahoos, including the extremist environmentalists"
There is much talk of ATV's but this a an ORV's consultation, which includes, trucks, jeeps, land cruisers etc. Which could be potentially targeted and restricted from use, even though they are the users who already have Licence plates and registration in must cases. It is unfair to target or restrict these users from off road trail use, as long as they're not cutting down trees to gain access.
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Preston Griffiths on Jan 8, 2016 at 4:25 pm
The point is there are many trails that are only accessible by dog sled and skidoo. The Alligator, Livingston and Ibex are old 4x4 roads created by vehicles and CATs.
These 4x4 roads should be open to 4x4 users due to that fact they are the only few that are available for use in the winter season. There are many many miles of other trails that 4x4 can't be accessed due to track width of the trails and other accessibility issues.
These Trails are there for the dog sled and skidoo community to use. So don't try take away the the few back roads that are available to the 4x4 users community. The dog sled community can't have every #$#% trail and the old 4x4 roads as well!! It's not a balanced approach!
The 4x4 Group as talked with the dog powered sports group and some of the 4x4 users were open to the idea of dragging a groomer possibly as a compromise.
The idea is that one user group can't simply over shadow the other. The issue of trail conditions are an issue however that should be expected on historically 4x4 and off-road vehicle back roads! There are many other trails for dog sledding and sled use. The range of available winter trails is much greater for the NON 4x4 community!
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Yukon Trapper on Jan 8, 2016 at 4:20 pm
The image above shows a trail that is very definitely ruined for people using snowmobiles for their livelihood. There are at least four registered traplines using the Livingstone trail to access their lines, and ruts like this make for dangerous riding. Yeah, the Jeepers have a right to use the trails like everyone else, but don't wreck it for other users. It's winter, this probably isn't the most appropriate way to get out and enjoy it. Before you go, think about the impact your actions will have on the majority of seasonal users. And to those throwing out the example that the Livingstone trail was built for hauling equipment. Yes, that's true, but when they did, the trail was graded and packed flag, not rutted out like this.
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Sally Smith on Jan 8, 2016 at 3:58 pm
Confession:
I once happily skidooed on freshly-laid cross country ski tracks on a lovely trail in Haines Junction. I remember thinking to myself how fantastic it was that someone had so kindly groomed the trail for my skidoo!
It wasn't until my husband-of-the-moment told me that those tracks were not for my skidoo but for the cross country skiers! Oooops! Sorry! Glad I got that off my chest.
Good luck friends! XOXO
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L Brown on Jan 8, 2016 at 3:50 pm
Gerry/mushers....Every trail (mentioned) you guys dog mush on what was either made by a truck/cat/or UTV.......If you made a trail that only dogs and your sleigh can fit, your problem would be SOLVED...Every trail you use has been naturally groomed by a snow machine or UTV!... You guy's have to quit this. These are not dog mushing trails...They are trails that are already there, that should be shared by all! In fact every day I drive home on the north Klondike highway ...I see a team of dogs pulling an ATV, for training! Should that be allowed? Enough already...
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zsoka on Jan 8, 2016 at 3:50 pm
"Jeepers" have just as much right on these trails as anyone else. There is really only 2-3 trails they use and those trails were put there by motorized vehicles. These mushers need to quit acting like it's their trail exclusively. Instead of going on facebook and starting a post trashing another group,taking pics out of context, going to the media and making plans to block trails why not contact the group? There are a**holes in every group, mushers and jeepers included but you can't fault an entire group for the actions of a few.
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Environment on Jan 8, 2016 at 3:30 pm
I would much rather see ORV'ers or Jeepers (whatever you call the group) use existing roads for their recreation, ruts and some impact has to be expected. Many of the old logging roads and mining access roads provide many multi-user groups with access to the outdoors.
The alternative, sending them into wide open back country (which is an option) and making new impacts to previously undamaged areas.
The choice is obvious in my mind, find a way to support multi use.