Photo by Whitehorse Star
Michelle Stimson
Act on ongoing social tragedy, council urged
Michelle Stimson says somebody needs to do something about the social tragedy she sees every day in the alleyway behind the homeless shelter on Alexander Street.
Michelle Stimson says somebody needs to do something about the social tragedy she sees every day in the alleyway behind the homeless shelter on Alexander Street.
In a brief but emotional address to city council Monday evening, Stimson said she lives close to the shelter.
She had just returned from a women’s retreat at Helen’s Fish Camp, a traditional fish camp of the Ta’an Kwach’an Council on the shore of Lake Laberge.
With an eagle feather in her hand, Stimson described how she visited one of the cabins built a few years ago under the name of Great River Journey. (It was an upscale tourism initiative that never panned out.)
On the stove was a teapot, and there slippers in the doorway, she said.
“I came home and had to step over a man,” she said. “I did not have my phone to call 911, which I do over and over again.”
The community is only as strong as its weakest link, and right now, this community is on its knees; is flat on its back, she suggested.
Stimson said all it would take is the permission from the right person to change the wilderness cabin into a place of healing.
A week or two ago, Stimson said, she was planning to appear before council to ask that fresh gravel be laid in the alley, because there is feces there.
She was going to suggest a couple of pretty benches be provided; some Band-aids.
“But that is not enough,” Stimson said.
“So I was thinking that we could all maybe go to this place and see what you thought and maybe open it as a healing place .... It’s ready to go.”
Stimson said it’s not enough to make it pretty at the shelter, “because the issues are not pretty.”
Her tears, she told council, were coming from knowing she was saying the right thing.
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Comments (33)
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Seth Wright on Aug 6, 2019 at 7:30 pm
Charmaine - I wish you well in your struggle. There is nothing negative in saying you or anyone else has choice. You do. I also recognize that it is not easy but you still have choice. I have lost friends, I have lost family and perhaps the greatest loss I have experienced is the loss of control of my mind - of actually losing it!
I have been sexually assaulted, tortured, beaten, stabbed, held at gun point, imprisoned, watched people die - twitch out, watched people get shot, get mutilated in a car accident and OD...
I have listened to people as they withdraw from their substance of choice, the screams, the violent convulsions, the hallucinations that cause them to scratch at their skin until they bleed and scar.
I have been in many different hospitals and I have been clinically dead on 2 occasions. I just did not care for anything or anyone.
I get it. It’s hard but you still have choice. I did not want to be the one that family were driving around to look for, is he dead?
I don’t judge. However, you have choice. I always thought people were judging me too. They were because that is human nature. You can accept or reject their judgment. The choice is yours. However, if you accept their judgement you are actually making a judgment of yourself as unworthy. Again, this is your choice.
The greatest gift you can give to others, your family, your brother, is the example of your strength and purpose of choosing different. It works. At this moment I choose not to use. For this hour I choose not to use. For this day I choose not to use...
DO NOT LET ANYONE TELL YOU THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE CHOICE.
It is not true... You can do it!
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Klondiker on Aug 6, 2019 at 3:06 pm
Yukoner. The RCMP and bylaw are to busy to police the breaking of law?
The RCMP are paid millions of dollars annually to police the Yukon. There is more to daily policing issues than sitting in an office and spending time worrying about white collar crime.
The streets need a direct and daily presence from our police force. It should entail frequent patrols of known problem areas, like the shelter, the waterfront, and main street. Offensive people should be told by them to move along, and stop harassing tourists and shoppers.
I realize it may not be what they want to do, but it is part of their mandate until the City of Whitehorse gets its own police force.
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Seth Wright on Aug 6, 2019 at 12:55 pm
Dear Snowman - You appear to be under a misapprehension. It is not about the location per se. Your assertion is an engagement with the “straw-person-fallacy”. What a lot of people are commenting about is the state that the current management has brought it to. It is as deplorable as your current reasoning on the matter.
We, you, and I have a moral obligation to comment on, chastise and otherwise correct unethical behaviour in the government. This obligation is apolitical and therefore not political.
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Jayne W on Aug 6, 2019 at 12:07 pm
I think step one..The Liquor Board has to stop giving off sales licenses to every place that asks. Stop having alcohol available at 9 am in the morning! I KNOW this is not going to solve the problem in any way, but give people a few hours of not being able to purchase alcohol every minute of the day. Liquor Service Training Program (BARS) is offered in the Yukon, I am not sure if it is mandatory to hold a liquor license or not. Make anyone that sells alcohol to have it. They are selling alcohol to intoxicated people. We also need to educate ourselves a bit on what is actually an addiction/disease/choice. I am not a huge fan of the saying "the way we do it down south" but maybe they can look at what other communities are doing "down south" what is working, what is not.
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Dave on Aug 6, 2019 at 11:54 am
@Just Sayin- I agree with your comment but would like to clarify one of your points. When you say several people mentioned they were successful because of loving parents I think you oversimplified things. My parents were not about love, they were about doing the constant and difficult day in day out work of being parents. They certainly weren’t my BFF’s, they corrected me often sometimes harshly and made me understand there were serious consequences for doing wrong. They also made sure their kids were home inside at a decent hour in the evenings and monitored us to make sure nothing to do with alcohol and drugs was around, what they did worked so no one can say it’s impossible in today’s world. I also don’t mind saying they used a strap when needed either and I actually understood that because I knew they cared enough to do what wasn’t easy on them either.
So when you say it was about loving parents - love came pretty far down their list of parental priorities. Their approach to parenting worked as it laid the foundation for a person who never abused substances or got into trouble with the law and turned into a productive member of society. Compare that to lately when in my neighbourhood I often see little 5 and 6 year old FN (I hate to say FN but I call it as I see it with my own eyes) neighbour kids come wandering home alone around midnight in the summer and wonder what in the world those parents are thinking to let that kind of thing happen. That lack of guidance and care is one of the first steps in a chain that will equal major problems later in life of the type we are seeing manifested in the Enabling Center.
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Yukoner on Aug 6, 2019 at 7:17 am
People are scared to walk downtown and be aggressively harassed. Bylaw enforcement isn't worth the paper their paycheques are written on. They are too busy making money for the city in meter revenue and fines. Another tax on residents.
RCMP are busy with more serious crime, they know arresting someone for drinking in public will do nothing, and the poor soul will be back on the street by the end of the day.
We know from the failed war on drugs that enforcement doesn't work. The level of addiction and pain is a health issue. And it appears that the problem has gotten worse since the palace on Alexander opened. The minister and underlings of HSS are in so obviously over their heads.
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Marc on Aug 5, 2019 at 7:57 pm
Doesn’t seem all that bad when I occasionally drop off a few dozen donuts, mostly get smiles and thank you's
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Charmaine on Aug 5, 2019 at 4:45 pm
I would have to say, that Lexi's comments hit home! Good on you and Seth, really? Just do it?! You are one of the lucky ones I guess, however, please don't use your success to judge and point fingers at "drunks" & "drug addicts". I grew up in a awful environment, drunk parties & sexual abuse (by relatives, yuck) were pretty damn rampant. Growing up in an alcoholic home was very hard. At a very young age, I became a mother to my siblings. I struggle with drug addiction (mask my insecurities), I don't drink (sober for a over a year), however, I did turn to drugs, gullible me, thinking it won't be too bad I will just use it until I feel better (hahahahaha, joke on me). Now I have a drug problem and now comes more f_____ feelings that I need to face.
In all of this my husband is a drug user also, we are both products of alcohol and abusive parents, uncles, aunts, etc. Anyway, I am going through all this, I go to Whitehorse and I drive by The Shelter to make sure my brother and sister are still kicking around. You see, my brother is a very hard worker and an excellent father when he is not on the streets with a bottle to his lips or a needle to his arm! Seth, It really ...., and all the others that commented negative stuff, you don't see the person behind the alcohol and crack, heroin addictions. They know or we know we are been judged and laughed at, this creates more yucky feelings that I mask. Vicious cycle for sure. I don't think it is laziness that stops us from getting help, fear maybe, the wanting to stop and then thinking well what the hell am I going to do if I am not numbing my feelings? I guess my point is, yes it is very, very difficult to see the drunks and yes frustrating dealing with them, these (and me) are a daughter/son, mother/father, sibling, grandchild, friend and someone loves us. One thing I am grateful for though is, I do not hang around the Sally Ann's anymore (I don't drink anymore) although sometimes when I do see my "friends" there I miss the life for a second (like someone said, no responsibility which is why I went there, I forgot about everything and everyone. I don't think any of us ever said "I want to be an drunk and druggie". With that said, please pray for the "drunk and drug addicts." Love and Peace.
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klondiker on Aug 5, 2019 at 12:00 pm
Where are the RCMP, and COW Bylaw?
Drinking alcohol on the streets is illegal. Enforce the law. People should phone the RCMP, and bylaw every time they see alcohol passed around anywhere near the "shelter".
They may not like it, but that's their job!
Maybe if the locals get picked up every time they bring out a bottle it might clean up the streets.
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Just Sayin' on Aug 5, 2019 at 11:55 am
Sorry for all the tangents.. incoherent thoughts...
I have read a lot of the comments on here and some may appear ignorant, but I cannot help, but think of the truth in them. If one has to understand why the alcoholics are alcoholics then one has to understand the lens of those who aren't.
There are already numerous allowances for Indigenous people to get help, but they have to want help and hold themselves accountable for the things have done. A lot of people, Caucasian, Asian, whatever have issues and deal with issues that do not come to the surface from cultural to religious everyone has issues, but how you learn to deal with those issues is where people truly thrive.
I read on here, a couple of people who said they were successful in their lives because of their loving parents. So, do we remove the kids whose parents are not capable of providing stability? This is not helpful to anyone. Employers are supposed to have a two tiered system, when you hire Indigenous people, one is supposed to understand the hardships they faced and to have more leniency with them, however, the person working in the corner, might be verbally abused every day and or sexually assaulted and inflict self-harm, do they get leniency? Our society, is so f&^ked. Society is turned into this double standard which decreases the empathy people have for other people. However, empathy only goes so far and so many people have their own issues to deal with. It seems anything society attempts to do to heal, is some form of colonialism and anything done within the truth and reconciliation is not helping… my questions is, for the amount of Indigenous people in the Yukon, why are there not more alcoholics? Why are some thriving? Why are the elders not stumbling around? I do not think the root cause for everyone is the residential school issue, perhaps, addressing each individual root cause, may help those who need it.
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Snowman on Aug 4, 2019 at 10:30 pm
Most of the commenters here are hilarious. All of you saying how horrible it is in that part of town now. So where was the shelter before that it was causing less problems? oh yeah, right ACROSS THE BLOODY STREET ahahah. I mean really, you all think moving the shelter across the street caused this situation? If anything, I would say it is that there is now a liquor store directly across the road.
Oh and Seth, it's hard to take anything you say seriously when you are clearly just a political hack who ends every comment by taking a shot at the government or Premier. Maybe give the politics a rest for a minute or two and try to come up with an idea to help the situation instead.
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drum on Aug 3, 2019 at 5:02 pm
I find the area around the new "Shelter" offensive. It is dangerous to drive along 4th Avenue anywhere near the "Shelter" because of drunks staggering across the road not even looking!!!! What will happen when one of them is hit? I have reported fights - seen awful things in the area - the Government run Shelter is an embarrassment to this City. Is this what we wish to be known for?
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Lost In the Yukon on Aug 3, 2019 at 2:37 pm
The streets around the Enabling Centre are becoming increasingly more unsafe and dangerous for Whitehorse's citizens. Today I witnessed people staggering across 2nd Avenue totally unaware of traffic and a group of close 20 frequent flyers of the EC blocking a corner across from the EC forcing average tax paying citizens to detour around them ... it looked like for all intents and purposes as a street gang.
I wonder if Steve Salmon (DM of HSS) or the Enabling Centre's namesake lived in the area the problem would have been solved a long time ago.
This has become a public health and safety crisis ... will it take someone dying before Slippery Sandy does something?
... oh and by the way the gathering referenced above was taking place before 9 am.
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Groucho d'North on Aug 3, 2019 at 10:15 am
With the observations in the real world, it is clear the separation from the Salvation Army's sobriety policies and oversight has been confirmed as a huge mistake by this government. Operating costs have gone way up and positive results for those attending the facility have all but vanished under the management of the department of Health and Social Services. This rapid decline is shameful and the minister and her colleagues must be held accountable for this situation, and the numerous other failures they engineered while in power. Clearly their Liberal Ideology does not work in these circumstances.
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Seth Wright on Aug 3, 2019 at 12:24 am
To - If it was that easy: It is not easy. But it is still a choice. I grew up on the streets and drank and fought on the reserves. I was gang involved and used drugs. I have been to detox and treatment centres. I have been to jail. Some said that I had no soul. Others knew I carried grief, loss and unresolved trauma.
I have been to years worth of counselling. I went back to school to learn a trade and I obtained a pardon. I have reconnected with the family I have left and I walked away from all of my old friends who remain in the old lifestyle.
I still feel the anger, the anxiety, the adrenaline surges, and the need to destroy but I choose not to. I choose not to self-destruct. I choose to live at peace as much as possible and I choose to live responsibly, honestly and accountably.
No it is not easy. I am routinely haunted by my past, what I have seen and what I have done. I know the monster and I choose not to feed it - Yours, theirs or mine... It is absolutely hard but I do it!
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Seth Wright on Aug 2, 2019 at 11:54 pm
With - If it were only that easy: It is that easy. You choose or choose not. Simple. I am not sure why you would suggest hate. The concept of hate is too easy. It is lazy and people who choose hate are not able to be honest with themselves.
What is happening right now in the Yukon is really, really unfortunate and it is dangerously stupid. The so-called professionals employed in the government service are stepping back and not only allowing but are actively enabling people to continue with their destructive lifestyles; substance use, violence, domestic violence and sexual violence. This is the price the Yukon is paying for its little pond with a big fish mentality.
Then there is this absolutely stupid idea that the government is slagging around as if it had some actual currency, the idea that FN’s know their people best. This is horse ...! Sometimes it may be true but they are no more or less knowledgeable than the average other. We need to get real and stop playing make-believe - That is the role of the Judges. You are hurting people and it is disgusting.
Counselling, psychology, social work and helping people in general is most effective when the helpee is accountable, feels accountable, can accept accountability and, IS HELD ACCOUNTABLE - Just to be clear - This does not mean punishment but what it does mean is hard work - Not the tokenism generally accepted by the legal system because - enabling.
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If only it was that easy on Aug 2, 2019 at 3:25 pm
@Seth - of course! These people should just smarten up and things would be fine. Never mind FAS, mental illness, growing up in environments that most of us can't even imagine, alcohol and drug addictions, no skills at all when it comes to even basic social interactions, let alone employment. This problem is literally everywhere (just returned from Vancouver) and has been around for years. I have no idea what a solution could be, but blaming them and hating them for the situation that they are in isn't very helpful. I can't imagine these folks are happy or feel good about their lives.
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Here we go again on Aug 2, 2019 at 9:28 am
Someone Do Something
Who? Government is always popular because when they do anything, it's wrong. Lock them up til they're sober? Wrong! Put on a program they wont attend or stick to? Wrong? Take them to the hospital? Wrong!
When I find that jerk, Someone, I'm going to kick him in the butt for doing the wrong Something!
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soulloss on Aug 2, 2019 at 9:11 am
The answer is not more money for alcohol treatment. All the wrong people get the money. Over the years it turned into a scam. What you see now is a result. Money for healing, same thing, it became a money making scam for people claiming to be healers. The sweat lodge was turned into a money making machine. No point in blaming residential school, it's a national cultural problem all over the Western world. Spiritual directors and leaders are few and far between, and the fakes are making it worse. We live in a materialistic wasteland.
The Anglican Bishop's apology was the understatement of the century. 'Supreme arrogance', should have been supreme ignorance, the betrayal of every Christian value, the Church became a tool of the state. The church and it's pedophile workers were in the grip of the Anti Christ is closer to the truth. And they are powerless against the collapse of religion and the loss of soul of the social disease.
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Seth Wright on Aug 1, 2019 at 5:22 pm
You make your own pain, you choose your own vice, you fail to cope, and “you” simply choose to fail or succeed...
You cannot rightfully blame your circumstances, your family or the government... To do so would be to accept a victim-stance - Rise up, empower yourself and move forward - Only “you” can choose!
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Juniper Jackson on Aug 1, 2019 at 2:25 pm
I have read..and reread every comment looking for someone to say it's First Nations.. certainly they are a visible presence.. but, there are white drunks laying around in the grass at Shipyards, there was a guy passed out across the street from me last year, maybe Filipino? maybe Asian? but not FN. I just want to point out that it's a societal problem, NOT limited to one race, one color, one creed.. etc. Nor is it limited to alcohol..drugs is a huge problem in this town.
I don't agree that FN are drunks because of Residential School, or that they should avoid jail and get of jail free with Gladue.. BUT..I do agree with studies that say some people inherit the addiction gene, and it is very strong in the FN genetic line. Solutions may have to come from the scientific community, rather than ineffectual government services. IT STILL ISN'T THE PURVIEW OF THE CITY OF WHITEHORSE COUNCIL.
One thing we all agree on though, is the former building of Hope..isn't. it's a sewer, the next government is going to have to clean up. It will likely become part of the election issues.
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Dave on Aug 1, 2019 at 2:13 pm
@ The Reality: Good comment, I’m not First Nations but like you was lucky enough to be born to sober parents who cared and instilled good habits and taught me right from wrong. Amazingly enough in Yukon I was not really exposed to drugs or alcohol while growing up either.
Coming from my background it’s really hard to relate to people who have experienced residential school, alcoholism and abuse. I must admit I’m one of the first to lose patience with those who have issues with addictions, etc., just because I have nothing to even faintly gauge where they’re coming from. My Yukon and my world didn’t include any of that.
I just hope that over time and in future generations the problems these individuals are facing today just become a memory and a lesson on how not to treat a generation of people.
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The Reality on Aug 1, 2019 at 1:19 pm
I am a First Nations man. I was lucky, I had two parents that loved me, taught me right from wrong and instilled good habits in me at a early age. I was lucky I was not hauled off to residential school like a lot of my buddies growning up. With that said my mother does not have one sibiling that is alive and not one died of old age.
Many of the First Nations folks that are wondering the streets of Whitehorse did not have any of the good things I had growing up. Do they form the majority of First Nations people? No. Some of the suggestions here are plain ignorant. Are First Nation Governments working to improve things? Yes. Is it a easy problem to address? No. The problems that exist in the First Nations community are complex and did not arrive over night. Yes they started with contact. Everyone of those people you see has been marginalized their whole entire lives, in every government system that you can imagine. None of those people want to be addicts and homeless. It will take more generations before these problems are fixed, rest assured they will be. Until then have a little compassion.
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Emma on Aug 1, 2019 at 12:02 pm
Where are their FN communities in all of this and what are they doing to help their citizens? Most of the people in the shelter are from various YT communities that have their own Health and Social departments with budgets and resources to help them. Last year I saw a “face of homelessness in Whitehorse” photo spread and one of the subjects who was photographed actually had a house in Carcross. He was only going into Whitehorse and staying at the shelter when he wanted to get drunk or party. He was not homeless. I had a bIt of a laugh at that one. The photographer obviously had no idea.
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Lexi on Aug 1, 2019 at 11:59 am
It is so difficult to find the answers. I know non aboriginals are sick of hearing about it, trust me I'm sick of it all too. Yet here I go, I'm only in my 20's and my mother, aunts, uncles, grandparents went to residential school, not all survived. And are still dying from the horror and trauma they endured. My mom died due to her alcoholism and I was so angry with her, why couldn't she just get better? I've studied, I work, volunteer and try to give back to my community. Still, I struggle with my own addiction issues from time to time. It's what I was raised around but I so want to break the cycle. I see the same pain in our youth and they're my focus.
Of course, there are some who've pulled through and thrive. But there's a generation or two of the older population I feel I've written off. I don't want to sound hopeless toward them, I love them. They are brilliant, hilarious, so strong at times and help culturally when they're home. Then they disappear to Whitehorse for months at a time. But all I can do is focus on myself and be a support where I can when it's healthy for me.
I'm trying to help society understand what I've witnessed. People use drugs and drink to escape their life, we all know that. They want to numb all the pain away. They're punishing themselves already and don't need further punishment. I believe they need to connect with their community again and most of all – themselves, this may help strive for sobriety. But some outright refuse to, like my mother. It hurts so f-ing much. Beside it all, I want people to know it is slowly changing. I see some strong youth coming up, I pray for our people, all people. I know with all my heart things will get better. Mahsi cho for reading and trying to understand. I appreciate the comments on here as well, we all do really and truly care.
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Lost In the Yukon on Aug 1, 2019 at 8:53 am
Note to Slippery Sandy Sliver … it's time for the Minister of HSS to go. How many screw-ups does it take before you put on your big-person pants and actually show leadership. From the group home mess, to not responding to requests for information from MLA's, to the most recent with the shelter (which if she had actually listened to anyone that works front line would have known that the Director engineering this did not have clue what they were doing) … oh and we can add all the reviews she has engineered at tax payer expense just to kick and problem down the road and not make a decision.
… and while we are at it Sandy maybe when you get the gumption to do what is right you can send the invisible DM of HSS that serves at your pleasure and has provided such stellar advice to his Minister, packing also - that's if you can find him. If you do manage to get a glimpse of him, ask him if he has ever made it to all the programs he is responsible for.
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Enabling Center on Aug 1, 2019 at 4:00 am
YG turned the Salvation Army building into the Enabling Center. It wasn’t acceptable for Sally Ann to have established minimum standards based on decades of national experience and not permit drugs, alcohol and intoxicated individuals in the building, YG howled about that because it wasn’t ‘accepting’ and of course they knew how to do things better. Seriously is anyone really surprised by any of this, anything YG ever gets its hands on with their socialist apologist approach is predetermined to turn into just another train wreck. Next the government will do the usual and start some endless studies and hand wringing to identify the ‘problem’,
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Seth Wright on Jul 31, 2019 at 9:00 pm
With - It really is a tragedy: You are correct in that we have failed to have expectations as a social ideal. Nowhere is this more evident than in Health and Social Services and particularly so in Justice.
We have politicized civil servants lauding each other for ridiculously stupid, bass-ackward, banjo-playing-incestuously, insane ideas spawned in the fervour of an orgiastic cronyism in the full throttle of climactic release... Look at me, look at me, aren’t I great!!
Liberal ideology loosed the Kraken and it is the citizens who will pay the toll for the arrogance of the leadership...
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Don Thorp on Jul 31, 2019 at 6:53 pm
The social problems in Whitehorse are exponentially worse than what we saw just a few years ago.
We need a stronger effort to show the bad behaviour is not acceptable and to work at solutions that work.
Social problems in downtown Whitehorse are worse than what I have seen anywhere else. The people involved need help to get their lives turned around.
Tourists must think this town is messed up.
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Juniper Jackson on Jul 31, 2019 at 5:01 pm
No one can help people who are happy with the way they are. A drunk? who can help you if you don't want any help? Mentally ill? Don't know what you're doing? That is your right to refuse help.. Drugs? Obesity? There are a lot of programs out there for folks that do want help. All that being said.. this IS NOT THE PURVIEW of the City of Whitehorse.. though this council might jump on that as an excuse to raise taxes again, and up all the other fee's.. It IS a societal problem that "it really is a tragedy" so clearly outlined. Society has given this sector permission to be.. subhuman? While I am cognizant of Ms. Stintson's predicament, she should take it to her landlord.. put in security. Take it to H and SS after the next election, because the current sitting government will do nothing.. well.. yes, they did do something.. they turned millions and millions of taxpayer dollars into a sewer. But, I repeat, this is not the job this council was hired to do..
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Richard on Jul 31, 2019 at 4:23 pm
Maybe throwing out the "bible based" programs from the Salvation Army was not such a great idea.
There is no greater motivator to pursue a clean lifestyle than being taught that we must all give account to our Creator who then promises us eternal life.
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Lost In the Yukon on Jul 31, 2019 at 3:54 pm
Since The Minister of Health and Social Services kicked the Salvation Army out of there it has gone from bad to a total gong show. I understand local businesses are losing business because of the uncontrolled behaviour all around the building. The police are there daily and often an ambulance.
If it wasn't so sad it would be funny but the HSS employee who engineered the turfing of the Sally Ann received a Premier's Award for doing it. Senior Management in HSS per usual is out of touch with what is actually happening on the ground in their department. They show up for a photo op and then disappear across the river and spend the rest of their time telling each other how wonderful they are.
Meanwhile folks like this lady have to live with the consequences of their incompetence.
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It really is a tragedy on Jul 31, 2019 at 2:56 pm
The tragedy is that it has become acceptable to:
Be drunk at all hours of the day.
Harass people for money.
Not have any personal responsibility.
A weak legal system (not to be confused with justice).
Leave needles all over school grounds/parks/alleyways/business entrances.
As a society we failed them by accepting that they are useless shells of humans, by not expecting them to be better. We help keep them victims.