Photo by Vince Fedoroff
A PASSIONATE ISSUE – The presence of snowmobiles on the perimeter trail of the Whistle Bend subdivision proved contentious at Tuesday evening’s city council meeting. Several residents told council they want the machines banned from the trail.
The City of Whitehorse needs to change the snowmobile bylaw, council was told Tuesday evening by a group of residents.
The City of Whitehorse needs to change the snowmobile bylaw, council was told Tuesday evening by a group of residents.
They’re taking issue with the city’s move to continue permitting snowmobiles to use the trail around the perimeter of the Whistle Bend neighbourhood.
Last June, the city passed a motion to make the trail non-motorized. Under city bylaws, however, snowmobiles are not designated as motorized vehicles.
After the motion was approved, it became clear the snowmobile bylaw would also have to be changed to reflect the addition of the trail on the list of pathways riders can’t take their machines on.
That prompted a survey to be drafted, aimed at Whistle Bend residents. It will ask for their thoughts on what should or shouldn’t be permitted on the trail.
The survey has not yet gone out for feedback.
During Tuesday’s city council meeting, nearly a half dozen people called on the city to simply change the snowmobile bylaw to reflect council’s vote in June 2017.
Keith Lay, who heads the Active Trails Whitehorse Association, was the first to speak on the matter.
As he started taking issue with city administration, however, Mayor Dan Curtis was quick to call on Lay to halt and “refrain from calling people down.”
After speaking a bit longer, Lay declared: “I’m not going to continue.” He then walked away from the delegate seat before council.
Paul Warner, the president of the Spruce Hill Community Association, also addressed council.
Non-motorized trails should be just that: non-motorized, and thus not permit snowmobiles, Warner told council.
It’s an issue that has also impacted his neighbourhood, he said.
Warner also took issue with the dissolution of the city’s trails and greenways committee as well as a task force in Whitehorse South that was set to look at trails there.
In short, Warner wrapped up his presentation by arguing: “Change the bylaw and get the task force started again.”
Dorothy Lebel also addressed council later in the meeting.
She argued changes to the snowmobile bylaw are needed to also address noise heard late at night coming from snowmobiles traveling on trails near homes – an issue Lebel said is evident in Riverdale, where she lives.
Coun. Rob Fendrick questioned whether that issue is addressed in the maintenance bylaw, with an 11 p.m. cut-off for such noise.
Acting city manager Mike Gau said he would get back to council next week on the question.
Meanwhile, the city also heard directly from two residents of Whistle Bend – Cedric Schilder and Nancy Brady. They took issue with permitting snowmobiles on the trail and the process that’s been followed.
“It’s a technicality,” Schilder said.
It was indicated that the Whistle Bend Community Association had a role in the city moving to a survey on the trail. Schilder, however, was not aware of any consultation the association had done with residents on the matter.
He went on to note many residents had already taken the time to make their views known when council was first considering the issue in June 2017.
Darrell Hookey, the community association’s president, addressed the matter in a statement to media this morning. He said the board had never requested that the trail designation be rescinded.
“No board member has approached a member of city council or staff to make such a request,” Hookey wrote.
“The WBCA board has no official, or unofficial, opinion about motorized vehicle use on Whistle Bend trails. Instead, we support the democratic process via an elected city council.
“The board’s efforts have always been toward facilitating respectful communication among all users of our trails so that a compromise can be found,” Hookey added.
“Board members believe that the current survey that has been distributed will help this democratic process and result in a made-in-Whistle Bend plan for our trails.
“A letter has been sent to Linda Rapp, from the WBCA board, to clarify our neutral position.”
Rapp is the new city manager.
Brady, meanwhile, emphasized the intent of the decision last June had been to make the trail non-motorized.
She asked that the city:
• honour that intention and add the trail to the list of trails snowmobilers are not to use; or
• change the bylaw to acknowledge that snowmobiles are indeed motorized vehicles.
She also questioned why the survey is needed when there has already been citizen input on the matter.
The survey is anticipated to be available soon.
In order to encourage thoughtful and responsible discussion, website comments will not be visible until a moderator approves them. Please add comments judiciously and refrain from maligning any individual or institution. Read about our user comment and privacy policies.
Your name and email address are required before your comment is posted. Otherwise, your comment will not be posted.
Comments (32)
Up 0 Down 0
My Opinion on Apr 10, 2018 at 6:28 pm
Good one Josey!!! Nice rant, and good points. They are not inclusive at all.
Up 3 Down 2
ProScience Greenie on Apr 8, 2018 at 1:35 pm
Funny the concern over snowmobile noise but nothing about super-loud street motorcycles with mufflers the size of a small tin can emitting so much noise that small children cry and song birds fly away in terror. Selective Nimbyism for sure and best kept within the city limits of Whitehorse.
Up 2 Down 3
north_of_60 on Apr 8, 2018 at 12:13 pm
The big issue which ORV enthusiasts won't acknowledge or address, is irresponsible kids on excessively noisy machines joy-riding on neighborhood trails at all hours. That's why those trails should be designated as non-motorized. The ORV community can't control it's irresponsible members, so we need by-laws to maintain the peace and quiet we deserve in our neighborhoods.
Also, by-laws should be the same for all motorized ORVs.
If everyone acted responsibly and respected others, then we wouldn't need by-laws, unfortunately history has proven that's not the case.
Up 0 Down 1
Josey Wales on Apr 7, 2018 at 10:40 am
Correction...no bunny tracks, did a revisit...perhaps a three legged squirrel with a big arse parallelling regular hare tracks.
Yes I thought it was way early too, the world is upside down currently so nothing really is odd anymore.
...there were however three new bud cans.
Besides being a litter bug, said bug drinks swill imo.
Up 4 Down 2
Josey Wales on Apr 6, 2018 at 11:37 pm
What a bunch of crybabies we seem to have.
I have no ORVs, I do have snowshoes, I do walk my two bitches (context 100% correct) all over the trails...and in bush, back when I had civic pride I would pick up garbage everywhere, been here a looong time...these days feels too damn long.
Know what folks?
Except for one idiot now deceased via his own stupidity, never once*say again...NEVER once have I had ANY issues with dirt bikes, snowmobiles, reluctantly even the bigger ORV units (I say it that way as those things are cars essentially and yes they chew trails).
The peace I sought on said journeys periodically is paused whilst another enjoying the outdoors, THEIR way goes by without any BS.
I know crazy eh, that different folks get different kicks, in different ways...OMFG!
What I find bizarre, is often the zealots bleating for yet more regulation, more polarizing, more recycling, more imports legal or not, more diversity...blah blah ya get the point?
Just cannot wrap their head that diversity has many edges to it.
Funny in this case of our towns diversity in transportation, recreation, relaxation, dissenting opinions ...we also must be a mosaic?
I myself prefer the melting pot method, where we all just get along as we share the same pot.
The minute the carrots ask for something, the potatoes will get pissed, the turnips will claim superiority, the meat goes all alpha and tries to dominate the veggies, the fat tries to separate from the rest all Illuminati like.
Then when the heat cranks up, before any chance of become one?
Depending on the size of the pot, the heat, the amount of greedy ants in said pot...often results in a boil over.
What should not have been in the pot gets spattered all over the kitchen making a big mess.
Thank y’all for your patience thus far, my point?
When you try stuffing all those greedy ants in a wee pot, and some of the greedy ants feel special, too much heat the mess gets bigger when not cleaned up.
Very much like my cynical view of our composted, crowded, rude, dirty, entitled, corrupt and delusional...community.
With our also once great country doing its very best harmoniously composting with it.
Gee...maybe even with this dead horse topic (pun completely intended)
diversity does not work?
Wee side bar folks....spring is near here, seen many wee bunny tracks and beer cans on MY trails...kidding they are ALL our trails.
Up 3 Down 3
Bandit on Apr 6, 2018 at 1:19 pm
Hey Sillig You don't have to worry about bears in WB. The disrespectful, entitled snowflakes walking their dog offleash, whilst texting or Facebooking on their iPhone, walking in the wilderness, earbuds in, startling a cub, forcing Mama up a tree, call the COs who felt threatened by a treed sow, shoot her because she was aggressive in the tree? Probably because her young one was wailing for her in the bush. But felt the cub was able to fend for itself. I just hope the cub survived to hand out some Justice for Mama. And by the way I support Shared trails for all users. Yes even the snowflakes.
Up 4 Down 2
CJ on Apr 6, 2018 at 12:18 pm
I am no snowflake, nor did I just arrive here. It's not some kind of heritage activity that snowmobiles have "always" had the run of trails. Certainly there were snowmobiles, but the proliferation is relatively new and they're much more sophisticated, faster and more powerful. There also wasn't the prosperity that allowed people both the money to buy a recreational machine that costs more than my truck, and the leisure time to drive them.
It's my opinion that this phenomenon arrived in the past decade or so, a kind of oil field attitude of excess and entitlement, that has a large number of suburban driveways occupied with one-ton trucks, trailers, and several snowmobiles and ATVs.
I happen to like the KSA, but they don't put trails in out of altruism. It's a slippery slope to do what you want and then tell people who disagree with you that you've done them a favour. And walking and skiing on snowmobile trails isn't all that. Sure it's convenient after a snowfall, and better than breaking trail, but it's not optimal. What a tiresome character trait ORV users share, to constantly berate, slag, and condemn people who have a different experience while self-righteously claiming we should be grateful for the things they do that we didn't ask for and don't want -- making their own trails, for example.
But this is as much about governance as motorized vs. non-motorized. To all appearances, city council has said one thing and has been thwarted by the snowmobilers' inclination to not take "no" for an answer and then managing to game the system to make city council's intention inoperable. Darrell Hookey can claim he's acting for the community, but it sure looks like he let the community association be used as a device for the motorized crowd to obstruct city council. Where city council stands, who knows. But when you can't believe they can enact what they say, that's a problem.
Up 8 Down 2
Sillig on Apr 6, 2018 at 11:35 am
@Mike....operators and passengers of orv's have been killed in the Yukon....no one has been killed by an orv in Whitehorse as a pedestrian...it's just the miss informed and rhetoric spewers who would suggest that.
Boy I'd hate to think we are scaring away the bears with snow machines in the environmentally sensitive area beside the huge residential neighborhood of Whistlebend.
Up 11 Down 2
Yukoner on Apr 6, 2018 at 9:12 am
I am happy that the Mayor does not let Lay and friends bully the COW meetings anymore. They are radical only-my-opinion-counts people. It's time that someone tells them that they are not speaking for the majority of Whitehorse residents.
I am not a sledder and love walking on the trails around town. Can't say that I had many encounters with disrespectful riders. What I do encounter a lot though are disrespectful dog-owners. Dogs neither on a leash nor under control and not picking up dog poop. See it every day, and with melting snow the "smell of spring" in Whitehorse will be very smelly again.
What about my right to go for an un-harassed walk? Maybe Mr. Lay could put some of his energy into having bylaw enforce the existing law instead of beating the same drum over and over and over again.
Up 4 Down 6
Stan Winter on Apr 5, 2018 at 5:28 pm
Trails belong to everyone and the issue is special treatment to a few groups and lack of appropriate sharing of trails. Why did council do a turnaround on this Whistle Bend trail issue, were they rewarding a group that builds a few bridges and demands that all trails are open to their members?
Council needs to represent all taxpayers and Betty and Dan please stop calling people's concerns NIMBYism. Nothing worse than being called names when you want to protect your investment and neighbourhood. Oh my, a newly settled area cannot have a non-motorized Millennium type trail beside all those homes. Give your head a shake if you insist snowmobiles have to use that trail; just find another way!
City staff do not seem to be qualified when it comes to protecting environmentally sensitive areas. It's like selling the family farm then lamenting the loss years later when your children let you know you made a big mistake. These environmental areas need to be protected for the wildlife that seasonally use them.
The KSA should have backed off the perimeter trail and found a way that avoided homes and walkers and people who want peace and quiet. Mark, just look at the WB maps and streets and do the right thing and get the machines out of there.
Up 9 Down 2
Just Sayin' on Apr 5, 2018 at 4:41 pm
My goodness! Born and raised in the Yukon and I never had an issue with people walking on any trail around the City. I drive my sled with respect, walk trails and pick up after my dog. When I hear a sled behind me, they usually have slowed down, I move over and they move over, I wave and away they go. If you do not like the smell of a two stroke engine, then you should move some where else. Snowmobile cologne is sexy as heck.
However, I am appalled at the people who are against this in Whistle Bend. First, the subdivision is literally built on the old dump. Second, the subdivision had a man made pond placed in the center of it which actually can attract microbes and cause mass alga blooms. Third, the trails were in place before the subdivision ever was. The subdivision is encroaching on trails which were previously in the area. Finally, if people want sleds licensed and insured, then so should mountain bikes, people who have animals especially those that walk(dogs). I miss the Yukon of old before the snowflakes moved in.
Up 5 Down 4
My Opinion on Apr 5, 2018 at 2:54 pm
As for why Snowmobile Bylaw is different is because the Motorized Bylaw speaks to a lot of erosion and damage to wetlands etc. that Snowmobiles do not effect. There needs to be different oversight in each case. Really Motorized should be changed to ORV Bylaw as that is what it is. It was just misnamed.
Up 11 Down 2
My Opinion on Apr 5, 2018 at 2:50 pm
Get all the facts before you get indignant about snowmobilers. Most of the Major trail development and maintenance is done by the Klondike Snowmobile assoc. All of the Klondike Snowmobile assoc. trails are multi use. (For everyone) Groomers run regularly over Whitehorse trails funded and volunteer labour from that organization. Go to the KSA Web Site and see for yourself what trails are the KSA trails and you will be very surprised. Council you need to express this more.
Up 10 Down 3
Groucho d'North on Apr 5, 2018 at 2:46 pm
What a bunch of entitled self-absorbed users we have all become. I can see both sides of the argument as I use my sled to lay in trail for walking on after it has had a couple days of -15 ish to harden up. Then some clown will come charging through with a quad and destroy the fine walking trail I had made for myself and others to enjoy. So that means another sled ride to fix it again. Oh well, it will be mud in a week or two and we'll have to move on to other interesting things to complain about. In the mean time, perhaps we could all refresh ourselves on what SHARED means.
Up 10 Down 3
My Opinion on Apr 5, 2018 at 2:42 pm
These chronic complainers that were at council have nothing to do with Whistle Bend and should have no input. Keith Lay is from Porter Creek and Dorothy Lebel is of Riverdale.
Up 4 Down 11
Mike on Apr 5, 2018 at 2:16 pm
Eagle Bay park, at the south end of WB is a protected area, why would COW all of a sudden let snow machines into an environmentally sensitive spot? There is a salmon breeding river below that has been partially cleaned up over the years. The grass and shrubbery hold the cliffs in place. There are numerous animals living along there including bears, wolves, foxes, eagles, rabbits and other small mammals. There are thousands of miles of trails for these machines to rip around on but these rugged bush men want to tear through parks, boulevard and back yards.
@ Sillig. You might want to fact check your statement, plenty of people in Whitehorse have been hurt and even killed on/by ORVs, including snow machines.
@Tory. The perimeter trail is maintained by the Klondike Snowmobile Association volunteers as they’ve been trying to gain a foothold on the perimeter trail for their own use.
Question, I’ve been in Whistlebend for 3 years and this is the first time I've heard of the Whistlebend association, who are these people? Are they elected or self appointed. Why do they even exist if they have no opinion on anything. Why did the association survey some residents (not me) then not make the results of that survey public?
Up 8 Down 1
Robert Scott on Apr 5, 2018 at 1:42 pm
Both groups need to find a solution. Perhaps two trails is the best route but also most costly. We live in the wilderness and we all want use of our natural resource. It seems we are getting more green oriented environmentalists north of sixty. These people also seem to be the vocal, perhaps suffering from OCPD. However everyone in town needs to be able to reach the great outdoors. Rather than outright banning one group I agree with reasonable regulations to include speed limit, hot dogging, noise limits from machines and enforcement. Surely we coul all make some concessions if the city struck a balance here. Least expensive model for taxpayers and set good fines to make it hurt for violators and help pay for enforcement.
Up 5 Down 11
George on Apr 5, 2018 at 1:41 pm
For all the motorized trails in the Yukon, you’d think a residential trail in whistlebend could remain off limits to motorized vehicles so residents could walk their dogs without worrying about some entitled ‘real Yukoner’ tearing up the trail on their tax-payer funded toy. I’m sure these whiny sledders are the same ones who left an epic mess at the log cabin parking lot this weekend - a mess that ‘southern environmentalists’ took it upon themselves to clean up. It sounds like ‘real Yukoner’ really means entitled hick with no respect for rules or other people. Newsflash guys - if it weren’t for the ‘southern environmentalists’ footing the tax bill and cleaning up your messes, you wouldn’t have the enviable benefits, Yukon bonuses, and government pork to buy your little two-stroke toys. Perhaps time to give your heads a shake and use your sleds where they should be used - away from residential areas.
Up 11 Down 7
Torey on Apr 5, 2018 at 11:22 am
How about the fact that the city doesn't plow those trails? People pack the snow down with their sleds so it's more comfortable to walk. I used my quad to plow that trail after the first big snowfall this winter. But apparently that's not permitted. If you don't want quads and snow machines, move back to Vancouver and Ontario. You people piss me off.
Up 15 Down 2
Mr M on Apr 5, 2018 at 5:59 am
Get people who use the trails and walk their dogs on the trails to pick up the dogs and garbage and I will stop using my motorized vehicles on the trails. People need to quit being so arrogant and thinking they do no wrong. You leave garbage and crap on the trails then you are no better than the people who ride on the trails. I also have licensed and insured motorized vehicles for the trails and I respect the people walking on the trails. See lots of people letting their dogs crap on the trails and don't pick it up. Can I report that to Bylaw? Also dogs off leashes. Re-use your old shopping bags if there is no bags left in the dispensers at the start of the trails.
Up 11 Down 0
Norm on Apr 4, 2018 at 9:09 pm
@hugh.. I dont own a sled, and licenses, registration and insurances won't make any difference cause the people that don't care just don't care. It's about education and enforcement of infractions- you drive fast, you get busted..big fines. On the other hand, you drive respectfully you cam use any trails you want. Easy
Up 5 Down 8
BnR on Apr 4, 2018 at 8:10 pm
Norm, you contradict yourself. We ALL pay taxes, including those who do want some trails designated non-motorized.
And no Plan4North, snowmobiles, at least in Whitehorse, should NOT be a method of transportation. They are incompatible with other wheeled motorway users.
While I absolutely do not agree with Mr. Lays approach and method, there are trails that should be non-motorized, because not everyone wants to be around sleds or dirt bikes, never mind the safety issues.
Having said that, I am an avid snowmobiler, I use them for recreation, hunting, cabin work, but I don't use mine within the city.
Up 12 Down 1
north_of_60 on Apr 4, 2018 at 8:06 pm
Snowmobiles are motorized vehicles. The bylaws governing snowmobiles on trails should be the same as bylaws for ATVs.
Every neighborhood should have a designated multi-user trail to allow motorized recreation vehicles direct access to backcountry areas where they can be legally operated.
Up 7 Down 6
Jerry on Apr 4, 2018 at 5:20 pm
I wonder how our supposed intelligent leaders say snowmobiles are not motorized vehicles. What do they think makes them run, a hamster in a squirrel cage?
Up 6 Down 14
Yukon Watchdog on Apr 4, 2018 at 4:19 pm
Nothing makes me grouchier than when I'm walking on a nice non-motorized trail only to have a snow machine come up behind me and ruin the silence I go specifically to find on a bush trail, then stink me out with their gas fumes. Oh, wait! I almost forgot. Two-stroke motorcycles in the summer make me even grouchier. Those things should be outlawed completely!
Up 8 Down 3
Hugh Mungus on Apr 4, 2018 at 4:03 pm
@ norm
I assume your sled is registered, licensed and insured?
Up 12 Down 3
Max Mack on Apr 4, 2018 at 3:53 pm
It is regrettable that our once wild, northern and isolated Yukon has become the epicentre of a battle by rabid-pseudo-religious-environmentalists. They demand that every inch of green space and potential dog-walking trail should be off-limits to those oil-burning "troglodytes" driving snowmobiles, ATVs and motorbikes. How peculiar that these same eco-nuts insist on their right to fly in jet airlines to exotic destinations or to Vancouver for a weekend shopping spree.
And our city councilors, more concerned with liability than the true character of the north, have caved in to these ridiculous demands.
With CoW's penchant for fashionable southern rules, Whitehorse no longer represents the Yukon or northerners.
Up 11 Down 6
Sillig on Apr 4, 2018 at 3:24 pm
Good for the Mayor. Those folks have been spewing hate for motorized users without there being any tangible issue to present other than they don't like them....cars drive by houses in neighbourhoods 24 hours a day, but a snowmachine, motorbike, quad (whathaveyou), can't.
No one has been injured as a pedestrian, save for their phobic persons, by a motorized vehicle, it isn't about safety, it's about special interest haters.
Waste of a time for mayor and council pbbblllttt
Up 4 Down 11
Alan Boomer on Apr 4, 2018 at 3:22 pm
Its nice, of course, to have mayor Curtis defend city administration staff in council meetings but the public should be allowed to vent when appearing before council and I would bet that city administration has messed up royally.
Why would they put up signs then take them down and then go to meetings and say the perimeter trail is not on the agenda then propose another community survey. Where is the fairness and transparency here. Who are they taking their orders from.
Dan could have said he sees or senses the frustration and then agree to meet with the concerned citizens to more clearly understand their concerns. To have the press report on these trail issues so frequently suggests council is not addressing the real issues. And it seems these issues never go away and they are important issues because of biased city bylaws and staff members who go from meeting to meeting trying to manipulate people.
Please fix this mayor and council, it's your responsibility!
It's likely that Mr. Lay and the many people who appear repeatedly before council on trail issues are very frustrated by city staff.
The wilderness city is not that any longer. Why people have to fight to protect their right to a quiet neighbourhood and green spaces is central to an issue that needs to be fixed now.
Up 4 Down 7
Whistlebend resident on Apr 4, 2018 at 3:15 pm
"Hookey wrote.
The WBCA board has no official, or unofficial, opinion about motorized vehicle use on Whistle Bend trails. Instead, we support the democratic process via an elected city council."
----------------------------------------
Hookey doesn't represent this resident of Whistle Bend with that neutral statement. He can go back to selling refrigerators.
The loop path should be non motorized. Sledders can use Casca as and 'out and away' They literally have 482,443 km² to run their machines in that isn't in a residential neighbourhood walking trail. There has already been plenty of destruction to landscaping, trees and the skating oval by snowmobiles this past winter.
Up 10 Down 7
norm on Apr 4, 2018 at 3:07 pm
There shouldn't be any non-motorized trails in our city, we all pay taxes , we share the road, we share the trails. This is a non issue other than enforcement.
Up 11 Down 6
Plan4North on Apr 4, 2018 at 3:01 pm
We live in the north. There is snow on the ground for more than half the year. Snowmobiling should be planned as a method of transportation throughout the entire city and Yukon towns. Always incorporate snowmobile transportation routes when city planning. Always.