Whitehorse Daily Star

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Keith Lay, Dorothy LeBel and Rick Griffiths

Draft ATV Bylaw encounters rocky terrain

The city's proposed ATV Bylaw needs some work before the regulations are adopted, council was told Monday night.

By Stephanie Waddell on July 10, 2012

The city's proposed ATV Bylaw needs some work before the regulations are adopted, council was told Monday night.

"You should really look at this,” longtime resident Keith Lay said during a public hearing on the draft.

Numerous parts of the document "don't make sense,” Lay said.

Submitting his comments to the city both through his presentation and in writing, Lay argued against many parts of the draft bylaw – from how definitions are written to regulations permitting ATV operators on the road in order to get to the trail system.

"We should not have ATVs on city streets, period,” he said.

Others stated their anger at a regulation permitting operators to push their ATVs through prohibited areas.

Those include boulevards, campgrounds, cemeteries, sites designated as environmentally sensitive, downtown, the Millennium Trail, playgrounds, roadways, ski trails, open water and trails that have been closed.

The regulation creates "massive loopholes,” Rick Griffiths said. He questioned why any ATV operator would be in any of those areas to begin with, and wondered how the city would enforce the rule.

Griffiths also noted a number of operators who make their way across the Robert Campbell Bridge in and out of Riverdale.

He suggested they should have to find another way to get across the Yukon River instead of creating a loophole allowing them to cross the bridge.

Dorothy LeBel agreed, noting many of the ATV operators she knows have said their machines are too heavy to push.

They should be limited to motorized trails, she said.

While she's used ATVs for work, she noted most often in Whitehorse, operators are using them for recreational purposes, essentially driving "high-impact fossil fuel toys.”

Many ATVs are extremely noisy, raising dust that lingers in the air, council heard.

Some ATVs have been known to cause bush fires and injuries to riders, even when a helmet is worn, increasing costs to the health care system, she said.

LeBel also argued that ATV use discourages pedestrians from using the trail system due to encounters they may have with the machines.

While most of those addressing council at last night's public hearing didn't want operators to be able to push their machines through restricted areas, the final delegate to speak on the matter took a different view.

In a quick presentation to council, he commented people should remember that anyone pushing an ATV is showing respect to others by not driving through areas where there are pedestrians or which may be environmentally sensitive.

In addition to the presentations at council, acting city manager Rob Fendrick said the city received two written submissions (including one from Lay) bringing forward concerns about the proposed bylaw.

A public hearing report responding to the issues brought up through the hearing will be presented to council next week, with second and third readings of the bylaw expected to come forward at the July 23 council meeting.

Opposition to the bylaw has been expected, with bylaw manager Dave Pruden informing council last month that some may argue the regulations go too far while others may believe they don't go far enough.

It will mark the first time the bylaw has been rewritten in 22 years.

Mayor Bev Buckway was absent from last night's meeting.

Comments (23)

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north_of_60 on Jul 19, 2012 at 12:08 pm

It's nice to have all sorts of laws, however if the offenders can't be identified with something as simple as a license tag requirement, then it becomes obvious that the CoW is merely paying 'lip service' to the problem and not actually dealing with it realistically.

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mary laker2 on Jul 19, 2012 at 8:40 am

I totally disagree with Mary Lake.

Some ATV, dirt biks and skidoos certainly are accomodating when they meet people with dogs. Others are way too aggressive.

Dogs may or may not be an issue but lets not confuse dogs on the trails with the ATV issue.

The ATV`s, dirt bikes and skidoos screaming around after midnight can be noisy, and very dangerous and there is drinking and driving in that area and loud parties at the old RCMP cabin site near Wolf creek and in a clearing near Mary Lake.

A balance in my mind is not simply saying we can all get along, live with it if you do not like ATV`s- many of these trails are currently multiuse, not by law but by happenstance- the first thing the city has to demonstrate to me is safety for everyone.

That clearly is not the case at this time.

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mary laker on Jul 18, 2012 at 3:57 am

I have been out on the Mary Lake trails and have encountered so-called 'problems' with loose dogs accompanied by dog walkers like the ones 'Susan' is defending in an above post. These dogs really were not a problem, but neccessitated a stop and grab your dog type situation where we navigated our way around each other. No biggy.

I have also encoutered dirt bikers on the Mary Lake trail who have literally pulled over and stopped their engines as I rode by on my bicycle with my own loose dogs.

I have never felt endangered by a dirt bike on that trail, but I have felt serious concern about an impending dog fight.

My point is, loose dogs including my own are at least as much a problem on these trails as dirt bikes are. We are all 'a problem' at some level. Deal with it. We live here together and if you keep on castigating one group after another, nobody will be enjoying the trails in Whitehorse, 'quietly' or otherwise.

Laws should most definitely address noise and environmental destruction, and reckless behaviour of all kinds. 'Noise disturbance' however does not mean anything over complete silence. Deal with it. Sometimes you might hear a motor on your dog walk, and sometimes you might hear a dog barking. The problem is, the current laws are not even being enforced. New laws are going to create significant expense (insurance), and inconvenience for law abiding people but are not going to affect those who ignore the existing laws and who will continue to ignore laws in the future.

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when the shoe is on the other foot on Jul 16, 2012 at 12:39 pm

Feel free to open your gates to 24/7 public ATV traffic in your own backyard anytime. "NIMBY'S" indeed...

"...tolerance is the problem" you say?. I agree; there is precious little tolerance shown by some noise producers towards those who are willing to stand up for their right to quiet enjoyment, and vice versa.

So, if by chance this proposed bylaw results in a city-wide ATV ban, should we expect to see ATV operators running away with their tails between their legs or silently descending into a state of apathetic bliss? I didn't think so, nor would I necessarily hope so.

YG has already recognized and taken steps to resolve the issue of varying tolerances towards noise and other pollution by designating a number of lots at one end of the Grizzly Valley subdivision for dog team owners. Of course, attempting to create similar areas in established neighbourhoods will be exceedingly more problematic. But good to know at least one resident apparently doesn't think there should be a problem tolerating "howling sled dogs, ore trucks, and god knows what else" next to their eternally happy (no matter what happens) home. (Seriously, if that is actually true, then I have nothing but admiration...but methinks a little too zen for the rest of Whitehorse to handle just yet.)

I move a referendum be attached to the upcoming election giving every voter a say in how much public area shall be proportionally set aside for quiet enjoyment. But don't be surprised if the final results reveal unhappy groups of intolerant special interest nimby's lining up on both sides of the issue.

Hypocrisy, the last bastion of the scoundrel.

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Susan on Jul 16, 2012 at 12:34 pm

We have encountered very aggressive ATV drivers in the Mary Lake area. Ban them on mixed used trails. They are a menace to the safety of dog walkers.

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unbelieveable on Jul 16, 2012 at 5:20 am

I cannot believe the arrogance of the three Nimbys who are once again in front of City Council. Rick Griffiths believes that atv'ers should find another way across the Yukon River? Pardon me but the last time I checked, that bridge was the only way across in the Whitehorse area, and we all pay taxes to "own" and use it.

Do us all a favour and keep your self-righteous attitude to yourself.

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Neat on Jul 16, 2012 at 12:37 am

Patrick, i will push my ATV just for you buddy :)

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manda popa on Jul 15, 2012 at 1:35 pm

I live on a greenbelt, major trail behind my house. I see atvs going in with parents and kids on them to do their firewood. What is wrong with that? I see kids roaring by on their dirtbikes. It is summer, they are having FUN!!! What is wrong with that? Yes, they are noisy but they are not spinning around my house so what is the problem?? TOLERANCE, tolerance is the problem. Some people think they own this place. If you want quiet, buy yourself 15 acres out of town. But I bet you would complain then about howling sled dogs, ore trucks, and god knows what else. If someone is unhappy, unhappy he will remain.

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Enough of that noise. on Jul 15, 2012 at 11:26 am

Current noise levels are unnecessarily excessive and in far too many cases, deliberate. Hotdog behaviour also needs some adjustment.

Fortunately, the entitlement attitude morons love to draw attention to themselves = easily identifiable. Heavy fines and seizures should cover enforcement costs nicely, with plenty left over to help pay for other services.

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Billy Polson on Jul 15, 2012 at 1:17 am

Patrick, there likely won't be happiness for you here in the Yukon. Try someplace south....Stanley park in Vancouver perhaps?

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Just Say'in on Jul 14, 2012 at 2:44 pm

Before the city looks at issues like this it should be determined that a large portion of the public feels strongly enough to have the city waste time on the issue. I would say 50% sounds democratic enough. Not just three people or a hundred for that matter. Council should have bigger fish to fry.

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Just Say'in on Jul 14, 2012 at 2:40 pm

Why is it that these same three people just keep getting "Air Time" The back country is not their private playground and it is not up to them to determine or try and lobby to have my rights infringed on. Council please just do you jobs and don't get all consumed by this NIMBY'ism.

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Randy Johnson on Jul 14, 2012 at 1:18 pm

Bylaw officers are indeed classified as peace officers as defined in Section 2 of the Criminal Code:

"other person employed for the preservation or maintenance of the public peace or for the service or execution of civil process."

The first test of this in court was in the Yukon in 1973.

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Patrick on Jul 14, 2012 at 3:50 am

I think all authorized ATV trail use should have access points which can be easily monitored by the RCMP. Forget bylaw enforcement, they are too busy and spread too thin.

Lets get the yahoos and cowboys off the streets and trails and stop the drinking and driving and driving while impaired by drugs. If you do not think it's a problem you have your head in the sand.

Why should we have to share trails with noisy dirt bikes who roar around late at night? Why is the city encouraging the burning of fossil fuels and an unhealthy lifestyle. Do you really believe people will push their ATV's around for an extended distance?

Lets clean up the trail use in this city. Why should I have to move to a southern city to have quiet trails for walking. If people want to use ATV's and dirt bikes and tear up the land they should move to a rough and tumble resource town. There are lots of jobs in Fort McMurray.

Whitehorse should be moving towards the wilderness cultured city concept. Lets get real here people. There is a place for ATV's but its not in all back yards or sub-divisions. I want quiet and want to maintain my property value.If YESAB can demand that the ore trucks on the road near Whitehorse Copper are as quiet as a library, our trails should be even more quiet.

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Max Mack on Jul 13, 2012 at 7:17 am

Keith R states "it is our own responsibility . . . to know and understand the regulations . . . as ignorance of the law is no excuse."

An oft-repeated "truism". Unfortunately, the sheer volume of laws in Canada makes it absolutely impossible for any anyone, including the most educated lawyers and judges, to know and comprehend the untold thousands of paragraphs of law that apply to us as citizens. In addition, laws are routinely subject to myriad interpretations as evidenced by the many legal battles fought at all levels of the courts.

Appropriately placed signage, coupled with suitable barriers and other mechanisms, are essential to solving the problem of people driving ATVs in the wrong places.

Your statement is hardly helpful to this discussion. And no, Whitehorse municipal bylaw officers are NOT peace officers pursuant to the Criminal Code.

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NIMBYukon on Jul 12, 2012 at 1:38 pm

Interesting that it always seems to be the same folks down at City Hall railing on ATV's, Sleds, Dirt Bike's etc. Sure would be nice if they tried sharing the trails and respecting individuals rights to enjoy their chosen form of recreation. I would bet for every negative encounter with a motorized offroad vehicle there is a an incident where people have had negative encounters with righteous skiers, dog owners, hikers, joggers, etc.

A little bit of respect for each other instead of trying to write more unenforceable bylaws would surely bring about a better solution. The tax payers would be better served by City Hall if their focus was directed at municipal infrastructure maintenance with less time spent passifying lobbyists.

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Keith R on Jul 12, 2012 at 11:15 am

I see Northone hasn't done his homework on Municipal and Territorial legislation or the powers and definitions of a peace officer, which includes Bylaw officers as well as other law enforcement. This is how people are caught off guard and are surprised when they themselves are caught by the law.....by listening to comments and following advice from uneducated people who have not done their own homework about regulations and laws in their own City. Just remember that it is our own responsibility as a citizen to know and understand the regulations of the municipality that we live in, as ignorance of the law is no excuse.

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Rider on Jul 12, 2012 at 9:59 am

Listen, not ALL ATV riders drink and drive,alot of the issues at hand are those that race up and down the streets without helmets or driving permits. As for the trails and protected areas, signage would help inform riders as to where they can or cannot go. Don't forget those parents that do not teach the younger generation respect for the wilderness, and others. Lets teach EVERYONE to resoect one other on and off the trails. And I am not a drinker, so I do not drink and drive, or use my quad to go get beer at the store.

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north_of_60 on Jul 12, 2012 at 9:31 am

If an ATV is insured, registered and licensed then it should be allowed to operate on streets just like any other motor vehicle.

Regulations should require that all ATVs be insured, registered and licensed with a clearly displayed tag. Any ATVs within the City without a clearly displayed license tag should be subject to seizure, anywhere any time.

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Northone on Jul 12, 2012 at 6:43 am

This ATV law is nothing more than tokenism to appease the whiners who don't like to see off road vehicles when they walk their dog.

It won't be enforced, it simply cannot be enforced, city bylaw officers are not peace officers and have no power to arrest or seize property. Teenagers in my neighborhood already ignore existing laws with their dirtbikes and ATVs and will continue to do so.

If you don't like motorized recreation, move to Vancouver.

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PFP on Jul 11, 2012 at 3:21 am

i am going to push my ATV down mainstreet and take my time, just saying, whitehorse is so fun.

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Josey Wales on Jul 10, 2012 at 9:23 am

Patric many already do, drink and drive.

As long as there is zero trail patrols, the new way of getting around those pesky RCMP and their roadside checks...is on your sled...ATV...ORV...at least in Porter Creek it is that way.

I have a feeling we will have another conflict in traffic, the way "some" of that crew drive..... resulting in someone getting hurt.

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Patrick on Jul 10, 2012 at 8:35 am

"Others stated their anger at a regulation permitting operators to push their ATVs through prohibited areas.

Those include boulevards, campgrounds, cemeteries, sites designated as environmentally sensitive, downtown, the Millennium Trail, playgrounds, roadways, ski trails, open water and trails that have been closed."

Prohibited areas by definition are prohibited- what more needs to be said. So, we may see people pushing their AVT's on city streets when they are out to get a newspaper or a case of beer? Whats next- will ATV operators be allowed to drink and drive?

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